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Message from fisakson

A while back I wanted to adopt a Chinese girl. It definitely was influenced by the media's attention/focus on the plight of girls being left on the side of the road to die, or left at orphanages, etc.

Then recently, I also read about the child abduction now occuring because of the profiteering of people to sell these poor children to Western adoptions, prostitution, etc.

Part of the reason I wanted to do this (or still do it, I'm not sure) was that I am of a mixed heritage background and grew up in a neighborhood that was not. I wanted to "help" the children and also felt I would be able to appreciate and convey the need to be connected with their culture.

Is it so awful for a person of one culture to raise a child of another culture? Even in the U.S. the issue of Caucasian parents raising African-Amer, children is an issue.

I don't really have an answer I just wanted to pose some questions and get some opinions on the topic of whether is it appropriate for us Americans to think we can go and "save" these unfortunate Chinese children.


[Edit by="fisakson on Jan 5, 10:01:37 AM"][/Edit]

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Message from kllewellyn

I think it is wonderful for Americans (or anyone else) to adopt children that are orphaned in China. A child raised in a house with love, regardless of culture, has got to be much better than the plight many of these children face when abandoned in China. My concern is only that these children are in fact orphanes and have not been abducted from their family for a quick profit. I guess we can only hope that the orphange and the adoption agencies are reputable and the Chinese government starts to close down those that are not. [Edit by="kllewellyn on Jan 6, 9:34:27 PM"][/Edit]

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Message from dnakashima

I just wanted to remind everyone that the Marketplace radio focus on China started today and there are some real interesting pieces on the internet at Marketplace from American Public Media. The pieces are generally short, too. You won't have to listen to the entire half hour show or the review of the Dow or S & P numbers if you don't want to.

But please find and check out the cooooool economic timeline of China that their website provides. It goes all the way back to the Han dynasty(!!!) to the present.

dan

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Message from dnakashima

I don't think there's anything wrong with people of different races/ethnicities/cultures adopting kids of any race/eth/culture per se. Certainly if the kid is stolen, there's problems. From the people of Korean ancestry who've been adopted by Caucasians that I've met, I've hea rd mostly good things except from one who grew up with fundamentalist Christians. This man felt like he had been brainwashed as a child and resented his upbringing for that reason even though he loved and appreciated his adoptive parents. I'm sure that happens with children and their biological parents too.

After reading the article, I would certainly be insistent in knowing exactly about the adopting agency and I would hope the adopting agency would be concerned with who the Americans adopting are too.

There was an incident during the Vietnam War where mixed race kids of Vietnamese and American soldiers were taken from their mothers and sent to adoptive parents in the US. the reason the Americans parents took them was that they were told that they were abandoned. that turned out not to be true. the us gov had told the mothers that they would be better off in the us and convinced them to give up their kids. i think i saw this in the movie daughter from danang if i'm not mistaken. great film about a daughter going back to vietnnam and meeting one of these mothers that had been convinced by the us gov to give up her daughter.

i guess another tough question would be how to make sure you are being culturally responsive to the child who hasn't had the opportunity to be immeresed in his/her culture and to make her proud of it.

rambling sign-off

dan

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Message from mhogan

I certainly think that a loving home, of any ethnicity, is preferable to an orphanage (assuming that was the other option). Parents of any ethnicity can love, nurture, and care for their child. I do think, though, that they need to be sensitive to the child's feelings about his/her ethnicity. The child should be given a chance to explore that culture if he/she feels drawn to it. Our culture places a lot of importance on ethnic identity. Feeling "different" from the society at large is difficult, and it would be even harder if you felt "different" from your family as well. Such things are, of course, a part of life and emerging identity that all people go through, but I think parents should be especially sensitive if their child is of a different ethnicity.

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from mhogan

I'm not really sure where to place this posting but am obediently not opening another thread, so here it goes. . .
Our school was fortunate to host 16 students from Japan this past week. It was a short trip. The students arrived and met their hosts on Friday night. They spent the weekend with them, went through school with them on Tuesday, and then bid them farewell. This was the 6th year that our school has hosted students from this same community, but each year I am struck by the same thing. Four and a half days can change people's lives. These students enter their hosts' homes anxious and nervous. On Tuesday when they return to school, the U.S. host is "translating" for their Japanese guest (Japanese English to U.S. English), and tears are shed by students and hosting parents as the kids board the bus to leave. These connections continue, and the good feelings that guests and hosts have for each other often expand to include the entire country of exchange. At these small levels, will we help to build bridges between countries and cultures.

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Message from zarooum

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=37992

So in light of the recent shockingly painless capitulation of U.S. internet companies (go google!) , I found it interesting that they're having the same debates in Asia. It just goes to show how the internet really is making this a smaller world. Now governmental abuses of citizens' privacy are available worldwide!

Seriously, though, we tend to think that in America we enjoy more freedoms than Asian nations but what struck me about this article was that Hong Kong's high court ordered ISPs to give up personal information about only 22 people, all of whom they had evidence had been committing crimes. (I mean, if you consider sharing a crime.) Microsoft, AOL, and Yahoo were happy to hand over information about millions (billions, even!) of Americans just in case any of them had committed a crime.

Obviously I think this is a major issue for the world at large, but I also think our middle (and high) schoolers could participate in this debate. Is the risk of copyright violation sufficient to give up our right to privacy? Or is it just making sure the corporate bigwigs make a few more dollars off us? How would you feel if something you created was freely shared throughout the world?

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from dnakashima

I finally read the article on the UCLAsia website taht probably started this thread dscussion about chinese child adoption. the article referred to a chinese dance group that reaches out to such children to give them exposure to their culture but more importantly to adult role models that look like them.

As a hapa, I think I was lucky as a man to have a Japanese American father to look up to. even though we didn't live in a JA community and there were no Asian Am male role models on TV growing up, I had one (pops).

And even though my parents always tried to teach me that race didn't and doesn't matter and all that, as you grow up, you know it does. Growing up, I was involved in zero JA community activities or groups. In fact, I rarely sought them out because the influence of my folks was so strong. I thought that joining JA clubs was like hanging out with people because of the color of their skin (and to some degree, I still do think that about social clubs). But about three years ago, I was invited to play for a JA baseball team: the San Fernando Aces. I hadn't played real baseball since high school and nearly turned it down, but now I'm field managing and playing shortstop for the team. This was the first JA activity/club that I had ever been involved with in my life and that took some getting used to. But now I have totally bought in to it. t he team has been around since the 30's and was the main team of the Manzanar internment camp so it has a deep history. in fact you can see an Aces jersey at Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame. so I feel connected to a tradition I had no idea existed four years ago.

Also, there's something different about the racial experience in terms of interpersonal interaction that i had never really experienced. The best example I can think of is when there's a fight or argument between players. Baseball games can get heated as you know and I guess in other arguments or fights I've been involved in before, there's was always a concern or maybe even a paranoia about there being a racial element. I think most minorities can relate to what I'm talking about. sometimes you may suspect that race is an issue and sometimes you'll never be sure. but in this league, it's not because most everyone is JA or Asian American. we have a couple whites and a chicano on our team too but the point is that there's not that unknown there. there's not that minority experience which i think you just get used to because it's always there. there's a comfort not easily afforded in most other circumstances.

so back to the article from the UCLA site . . . i think it is so awesome for those adults to offer something like this to the kids. i wish i had participated in this league since childhood because it is special and different.

and if anyone wants to inquire about our league, post a reply. i'll hook you up with a team.

dan

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Message from Arthur

I was at a conference last week, and two separate aspects of China came up. First, in the USA Today newspaper, 1.26.06, on the cover was one of their snapshots. It said the number of children in China studying English is 200 million. Number of children in the USA studying Chinese is 24,000; quite a difference.

The second topic, quite eye opening was what one of the presenters said. He was talking about the value of education, and that in the US, the model for higher educatioin is that between 15-20% of the population will have a college degree. So for the US, at 15%, gives us around 44,705,124 people with a college degree, based on a population of 298,034,209 (figured obtained from the US Census Dept).
The presenter said that China uses a similar model for their schools. wanting the same percentage to be educated. If the figures are correct, China has a college grad population of around 195,947,070, based on a total population of 1,306,313,800 (figures from Encarta). So it appears that China's educated population is close to our total population. The presenter also said things that Clay said to us, that our kids are no longer competing against each other for jobs, but we are now competing against the world for jobs.

These figures raised a lively discussion with my students, and on the value of an education.

clay dube
Topic replies: 1894
Topic Posts: 604
Message from Clay Dube

Arthur's right to note that China aims to educate more and more people. At this point, however, the number of Chinese with college educations is far less than the nearly 200 million he mentions.

In 1985 (when I was finishing my third year of teaching in a Chinese university), total university/college enrollment totalled 1.7 million. In 1990 it was about 2.1 million. In 1998 it was 3.4 million. It has shot upward in the past several years. By 2004, more than 13 million were enrolled. At this rate, however, it will be just a few years before China reaches the 200 million college grad target.

Statistics:
http://test.china.org.cn/english/en-sz2005/kj/biao/21-1.htm

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from Arthur

Thanks for that site Clay....lots of good info in it.
I'm not sure if I'm relieved by the difference in what I was told and what you showed or more worried. It seems the rest of the world values education and holds it very dear. At times, I feel like a cross between a baby sitter, correctional officer, and occasionally, a teacher.
When I was in Cuba, even though they make no money, teachers are highly respected, and education is highly valued. I got the impression that if a child poses problems, academically or behaviorally, that child is embarrassing not just the family, but the state. So discipline issues are minimal, because they want to do well. There is no peer reward for misbehaving.

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Message from rrustamzadeh

Hi Artur,

I'm not sure if comparing the number of students learning English in China and the US is very meaningful. English is now considered an internationa language. If that comparison means anything, it is that if 200 million Chinese are learning English, then fewer Americans have to worry about learning Chinese. If you go to Germany you do not have to worry about not speaking German, because most of them speak English. But if you go to Italy and don't speak Italian, boy you're in trouble.

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from rrustamzadeh

Lantern Festival

Do you want to learn more about this interesting Chinese festival? Click below.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html

Check out the floweres. Would you beleive that they are actually lanterns?[Edit by="rrustamzadeh on Feb 4, 3:48:40 PM"][/Edit]

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from Arthur

Hi Reza....My comments are definitely not directed to you, so don't think that.

Reza does make an interesting point, because English is a common and popular language, does that make it acceptable that our student's shouldn't learn others? To me, this is what irritates the rest of the world, an arrogant attitude on the part of many Americans. Why should we bother learning about you or your culture, we have the technology and power, therefore we are in charge. You will do as we ask.

Reza..we may have the beginnings of a good debate here...

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from rrustamzadeh

Thank you Arthur. You could not be more right. But I have to leave it at that, because I look too different to have an open opinion. I wish we had more understanding people like you.

By the way does any body get this joke? I didn't. Is Stoly some kind of Chinese drink?

A man goes into a Chinese bar and says, "How 'bout a Stoly?" The bartender says, "Once upon a time . . . ."

Here is another one, but it sounds like a piece of history rather than a joke!

Prime Minister Zhang was fond of handwriting, but he didn't put in a lot of effort to do his exercises. Everybody sneered at his bad handwriting, and the Prime Minister himself really didn't care.

One day he happened to draft a beautiful sentence and at once wielded his writing brush to write it down, indeed, there were dragons flying and snakes dancing all over the paper. Then he ordered his nephew to copy it.

When beginning to copy, his nephew stared tongue-tied and did not know where to start. The young man had to take the manuscript back to the Prime Minister.

"Uncle, I can't read your handwriting, please tell me what words they are."

The Prime Minister read his cursive hand a long time, and did not know what Chinese characters they were, either. He then turned to blame his nephew. "Why didn't you come earlier to ask me? I myself have forgotten the words which I've written."

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from fisakson

Reza, I want to address the issue of foreign language, but first I must add that the "joke" you posted about the Chinese man is suppose to be a funny, but racist, comment on the accent of a Chinese person. btw.. Stoli is short for Stolichnaya, the vodka.

Okay, yes I agree most anywhere in the world there are people who know English. Even some French and Italians KNOW the language, they just don't want to speak it. No, it is not okay for our students to go through school not learning a foreign language.

Learning a foreignn language helps students to differentiate their learning and improve their analytical thinking. It isn't so much what language they learn, but merely the simple fact that they are in the learning process of acquiring a second language. The switching back and forth is a mind stimulation. On top of that, if a student were to learn a language with a completely different writing system, such as Chinese, that again is a brain power increase.

There is some research to support my claims but I don't have that info at hand. Does anyone want to help me out?

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from rrustamzadeh

Dear Fisakson,

Thank you for explainig the Joke. I have never had a drop of alcohol in my life. I am not familiar with any drinks or their brands. I was asking if any body could expalin the joke to me.
I have been trying to learn about all aspects of Chinese life. I have been searching many Chinese sites. One of the sites I ran into was Chinese Jokes. Most of them made no sense to me. They required being familiar with Chinese language. I picked one out of many(Just to change the subject. Clay likes us to stay within Chinese matters and subjects), asking if any body got it. Now I do, and thank you again.

Secondly, I am sorry what I wrote in plain English was misunderstood by you. By no means do I agree that Americans should be monolingual. I pointed out a very common and obvios social behavior, without getting into details. I was hoping that my point would be easily understood, as Arthur very well opend it up.

Here is a little math problem to cheer you up and show that I agree with you 100%.
As a Persian speaking student who was learning English in America I decided to learn Spanish at the same time. My teacher was Cuban, and he claimed that my accent was Mexican. Can you tell me how many different nations and nationalities I mentiond in my statement. [Edit by="rrustamzadeh on Feb 5, 10:24:36 AM"][/Edit]

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from Arthur

This article just popped up on the news...looks like Japan has a new heir to the throne.

Princess Kiko is pregnant

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from ctchir

NPR's "All Things Considered" today (2/10) presented a fascinating look at how the Chinese government carries out policy at the local level. Apparently it is fairly common for women to have more than one child in rural China, because they need more hands to help with the farm labor. However, local officials cannot rise in the system unless they meet their "one-child quotas, which has led to forced sterilizations and forced abortions by some overly ambitious and zealous local officials. A blind lawyer has brought information to the rural people about how they should demand their rights, as officially, the government doe not sanction forced sterilizations or abortions. For speaking out on this issue, he has been under house arrest for the past 6 months. Go to www.npr.org, then click on "All Things Considered". The program is titled "Chinese Village Fights for Release of Activist". I think this would be an excellect source of information for government classes to talk about the reach of the government into private lives and to discuss the ways government policies are carried out.

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Message from tsprague

I just read an article in The New York Times Upfront magazine that talked about the economic boom in China producing dangerous levels of pollution. Automobile use and energy consumption in China, as it is right now, can quadruple pollution levels over the next fifteen years. The most startling statistic was this: on any given day, 25 percent of the pollutants in Los Angeles skies can be traced back to China. Wow!

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Message from aaguilar

There's lots of scary stuff when it comes to the needs for such a huge population. Another scary event is the disparity of boys to girls. Recently, on Primetime, they mentioned that girls are now being kidnapped to be sold to villages who have no females of marrying age for their male sons. They are also sold at young ages and are raised by families who later use them to carry on the family name. Ultrasound machines are used to detect the sex for a child to selectively abort girls. These Ultrasound machines are portable so even though the government has made them illegal, people can get an ultrasound inside a van anywhere.

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Message from cyu

I read an article on LA Times on April 15, which was quite shocking. The Chinese government is setting strick rules on caring for the elderly parents. It fines and puts in jails those who neglect their elderly parents. A father who was disabled took his children to court for not supporting him. Anyone else read it? How do you find the article on the internet?

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Message from fisakson

I posted a similar response on another topic/thread but I wanted to share on this thread as well.

"I just attended a workshop this evening about "moral intelligence" by a national speaker/writer by the name of Michelle Borba. She emphasized the values of empathy, conscience and self-control, which she believes is part of the problem in today's American society." - posted on another thread

It is interesting how as we become more global and China appears to become more Capitalistic, we are seeing behaviors in China that would NEVER have occurred years ago. Black Market babies, Not taking care of your elders? What's going on? Are we ,the Western cultural influence, to blame? China has such an intricate and expansive history that is far more extensive than the U.S., will this "decline" continue?

Just questioning, seeing and hearing all of the new information at our last "Asia in the Classroom meeting" got me thinking.

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from oiwuagwu

I read an interesting article from www.asiannewsnet.net. Apparently a lot of conflict resulted from the government forcefully evicting farmers and activists from land that was earmarked for a US base. All this happened just yesterday! This was no small clash either! There were 13,000 riot police involved in evicting the activists and farmers. According to the article the government did not want to lose trust with it's US presence. For this reason they didn't hold back in detaining all of the farmers and activists. If something like this happened in the US you can be sure it would hit the front page of any newspaper.

The Asian News Network looks like a great source for finding out about what's going on in Asia.


Click here to read the full story

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Message from rrustamzadeh

I saw this on PPN. What was interesting was their method of confrontation. People carried long sticks( about 6-7 feetlong)to keep the antiriot police away from them. They could hit the policemen without being touched. But then the police used gas which they could not confront. I admired their smart method. At the end, the police (the Americans)won. They showed the police installing barbed wire around the land(taken away from the farmers).This is part of spreading American democracy in other nations.

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from sperez

Its interesting how many Americans talk about the limited freedom of press in places like China and North Korea, and yet most Americans will never know about that large riot against an American military base in South Korea. We are still so provincial in our news coverage. Almost any other foreign language station does a better job at covering the important events happening in the world today. I guess our government doesn't need to manage the news so much since the commercial interests that own the stations do the managing for it. And we're supposed to be the model of democracy for other countries? With an uniformed electorate of whom less than 50% even bother to cast a ballot? Our founding fathers would be ashamed.

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Message from jashworth

I suggest a good news outlet for getting info about Asia including Korea is the Washington Times. The website is washtimes.com. On violence in Korea, maybe you weren't aware but street protests with thousands involved is quite common in S. Korea as opposed to N. Korea. They are almost like sporting events and each side pretty much knows what to expect although they do get ugly sometimes. There are protests for all kinds of reasons and anything to do with anti-Americanism these days is pretty popular with the college age set. Most younger Koreans didn't experience the Korean war and have been propagandized by the North so they're somewhat confused about why the US military is there anyway. I've heard there is even some sentiment to remove MacArthur's statue from Inchon, and those same people would probably rather put up a statue of Kim Il Sung or his son instead. So much for a loss of historical perspective! All anyone has to do if they are in Korea is go to Ponmunjon (sp) on the 38th parallel to get a reality check about why the American military presence is more important to Korea than a few rice paddy's. I agree that it's hard to give up the family farm but sometimes a larger view of the situation is required. My thoughts

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Message from rrustamzadeh

Who is talking about a few rice paddy's?
We are talking about human lives. Human dignity, and human rights!!!!!!

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from jashworth

I did not read the original article which describes who is losing land to the new military base but it sounds like a case of eminent domain. As for human rights and human dignity, please do some research on the conditions of people in North Korea and about the history of American involvement in Korea after world war 2. I have an uncle who lost his life fighting for the lives, dignity and rights of Koreans and I hope people don't forget that N. Korea still hasn't signed a peace treaty.

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Message from vgairola

I haven't actually taught 6th grade where they introduce India and one of the topics that I have seen being mentioned in the text books is the tradition of 'sati', or the process of burning the widow in the funeral pyres of the dead husband. The impression I get from the text books conveys the feeling that 'sati' is a wide spread tradition which it is not. In my continuous stay in India for over 35 years, I never witnessed an incident of 'sati' though news of such happenings do make it's appearance the news once in a blue moon.
The reason I bring up this topic is because I came across such a news today online and it is pasted below -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Woman commits 'sati' in UP village
[ Friday, May 19, 2006 01:59:08 pmIANS ] Times of India

LUCKNOW: Vidyawati, a 35-year-old woman committed sati by jumping into the blazing funeral pyre of her husband in an Uttar Pradesh village.
The shocking incident took place on Thursday evening in Fatehpur district, about 170 km from the state capital.
According to information reaching the state headquarters here, the incident took place around 6 pm in Rari-Bujurg village under the Binkdi police circle of Fatehpur district.
Fatehpur district superintendent of police Veer Bahadur Singh said: "The incident followed the recovery of the body of Vidyawati's husband, Lakhan Singh, who had been missing since May 15."
The officer said, "Since Lakhan's body was in a highly decomposed state, it was taken straight after the post-mortem for cremation. Vidyawati came down to the cremation ground on the pretext of offering her last homage to her husband, but no sooner was the pyre in full flames than she jumped into it."
Eyewitnesses told the police that one of her relatives did make an attempt to pull Vidyawati out, but failed to do so. Vidyawati was soon reduced to ashes before the eyes of scores of villagers who had gathered to attend the funeral.
The practice of widows immolating themselves in the funeral pyre of their husbands was abolished nearly two centuries ago by Lord William Bentinck under British rule.
Independent India's constitution too has banned it as a social evil that is considered illegal, though many such cases have come to light over the years, especially in the states of Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Message from aaguilar

I have been a Kimchi lover for some years and was delighted with an article in the LA Times discussing its many benefits. I fell in love with the simplicity of it and white rice, many moons ago. Oh, sooooo tasty. You can find Kimchi at any local market, usually set along with refrigerated goods. Anyway, grab on to your seats for this. At the Kimchi Research Institute, (can you believe!) they have discovered that hairless mice fed kimchi developed fewer wrinkles. WOW! Also, the Korea Atomic Energy Reseach Institute unveiled a kimchi especially for astronauts to prevent them from becoming constupated. Bet Tia Carmela will be happy about that! Third, a researcher at Ewha Woman's Universtiy in Seoul reported that kimchi lowered stress levels on caged mice by 30%. Crazy, huh? There are bad news. If you are an extremely heavy eater of Kimchi you have a 50% risk of getting stomach cancer. Like anything, kimchi in excess is bad, bad, bad. On the other hand, U.S. mangazine heath listed kimchi in its March issua as one of the world's five most healthful foods. Its lactic acid bacteria helps with digestion and according to some researchers boosts immunity. It is also an excellent source of vitamin C and andtioxidens. So, next time your at the store, don't forget your kimchi.

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Message from jashworth

I read the article too and was amazed to find out that there are numerous organizations devoted to the study of Kimchi in Korea. I don't think there is any other country in the world that can be so closely defined by one particular food the way that Korea is with kimchi. When you get off the plane in Korea you suddenly notice a pervasive odor in the air and everywhere you go as well. That's right, kimchi. There are hundreds of varieties but the most common is the Chinese cabbage version saturated in a spicey sauce. Maybe this article is a sign of the future popularity of Korean cuisine. Although most everybody is familiar with a few Japanese and Chinese dishes, Korean cuisine is yet to be a popular discovery although I believe it is far superior to the latter two. Not to mention the health content in much of what is served in the typical Korean meal. I think an interesting way to introduce a unit on Korea to any classroom would be to provide a sampling of some rice and kimchi for those willing to take the challenge. After that, revealing the ingredients would get a round of ruckus laughter as well. By the way, I just finished a fresh bowl of Kimchi-Chigae (kimchi casserole) but it hasn't done a thing for my wrinkles. If you would like some suggestions for a good Korean restraunt close to the UTLA bldg. let me know.

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Message from aaguilar

Oh, I'm always in for some good food. Outside of Tofu House which I thought was awsome I am at a loss. Please suggest away.

Anonymous (not verified)
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Message from jashworth

There are many good Korean restraunts near the UTLA bldg. but 2 that are standouts are ChoSun Kalbi which is on Olympic right near Western. It has great Kalbi (marinated ribs) and an ultral modern atmosphere. The other is Hodori which is open 24 hours and has all kinds of dishes (pictured on the wall) at reasonable pricing and is located on Vermont and Olympic. Have fun!

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Message from vgairola

I compiled this write-up since the tradition of 'dowry' generally permeates every family in India-
>>>>>>>>>>>.
DOWRY Tradition of India

If you check the definition of ‘dowry’ in The New Lexicon Webster’s Dictionary’ (1987), it reads: “the money, land or other possessions which a woman brings to her husband under a marriage contract”.
The concept of ‘dowry’ in India is of ancient Hindu origin; however, in Hinduism, marriage is not a ‘contract’.
At the present time, the concept of ‘dowry’ has generally taken up the nature of being a social evil because cases of the bridegroom’s family asking hefty amount of wealth, from the family of the bride, in cash or property abound. Sad to say that at times, a newly-wed bride can be a target of many jibes and taunts in her husband’s house for ‘not bring enough dowry’. At times, this has fatal consequences leading to the bride being killed or committing suicide.
Though this tradition has taken a shape of a social evil, its origin was wholly noble. In ages past, the reason a dowry was given to the bride by her family was because it represented her share of the property. This served two purposes – one, since travel was not easy and the major asset comprised of land or house, it was not feasible for the daughter of the house to keep an eye on her share of the property once she was married, usually away from her village. Second, since society was highly agrarian (which it still is despite the advancement in technology), it prevented the land being divided and sub-divided into smaller holdings and prevented ancestral property from going to the other (bridegroom’s) family.
As time went by, this ‘noble’ tradition became a victim of decadence. The bridegroom’s family started demanding wealth from the bride’s family, mostly, as a ‘refund’ for all the money that the former had ‘invested’ in educating and getting a job for their son. The bride’s family, mostly, takes hefty loans to pay this dowry and might not get out of this debt for a generation or more. It is for this reason, at times, that couples are not happy when a girl is born because they start being anxious about how to get their daughter married off (marriage is mostly arranged) to a good suitor. Innumerable families go through this trauma caused by a social norm.
In recent times, there has been an increase in the acceptance of youth ‘having an affair’
(traditionally scorned at) and deciding to get married on their own without the elders in the family intruding. More and more cases are occurring where educated couple decide not to get involved in the give-and-take of dowry. Additionally, with the increase in higher education, women increasingly are confident about being able to support themselves on their own. However, since old habits (“traditions”) die hard, it might be a few generations before the end of this institution will become a norm.

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Message from rrustamzadeh

I thought you might find it interesting that "dowry" is ALSO the money. land, or material that a man gives or promisses to give to the bride at any time after marriage. So it seems like it is used both ways.
If you do not beleive me try Marriam-Webster. Ofcourse it is worded differently from mine.

Here is another interesting word that I found while I was following up on your little reasearch."TROUSSEAU"(I wish I knew how to pronounce it"), it means:

the personal possessions of a bride usually including clothes, accessories, and household linens and wares.

I don't think the groom can claim any of the stuff.

I wish we could hear more about this give and take concept from different cultures!!!

clay dube
Topic replies: 1894
Topic Posts: 604
Message from Clay Dube

Many have been impressed by Chinese acrobatic performances. Once one could only see these in China, but now there are countless traveling groups performing throughout the US. Teachers and students may be interested in the training such performers go through. New York Times reporter Howard French and photographer Chang W. Lee visited a training center and produced an online slide show. Please take a look and comment on it.

NY Times slide show

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Message from rboller

Hi Reza,

The word trousseau is one I'm familiar with - and it is pronounced "true-sew". At the time of my marriage, my mother in law gave me a gift of money in order to help pay for my "trousseau". She was partly joking, I think, but I do believe that this practice has not disappeared entirely in the US. I certainly appreciated starting my married life with a nice wardrobe, as I think most men would as well.

In terms of dowries, while I can see the point of view put forth in Saturday's session that it is in some ways power for the woman to bring a large dowry, at heart I can't help but feel it shows the inequalities between the woman and her husband. It was presented as a channel for women to take their inheritance early, however I would not think that most women in East Asia in the periods we have been studying would have had control of their own dowry. It really is quite different from an inheritance, isn't it? The woman really was not allowed to own anything substantial herself, right? So what we could say accurately is that it was a way for the woman's family to gift her husband's family with what would have been an eventual inheritance. The woman is still out of the power loop.

Is it just me or did anyone else see the presentation of dowries, infanticide and foot binding as sources of power for women as a bit too much of a lemonade from lemons interpretation? I do believe we should examine all elements of these events and try and understand them as being situated in a different time and place, however why do we need to take such pains to avoid stating the obvious and perhaps most important fact - women suffered in tangible ways from a lower status and the resulting inequalities. Or am I just a crazy old feminist?

Enjoyed the information Saturday and saw much truth, but got found the perspective odd. I can't help but wonder if we would use these same positive lenses to filter historical information when evaluating other power imbalances. What do you think?

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Message from rrustamzadeh

Hi Ricki,

NO Ricki,you are not a crazy old feminist!. I agree with you 200%.
It just breaks my heart to read all the cruelty that history has had towards women.
Unfortunately I am not in your class to enjoy your discussions. I only benefit long-distance.

Can you post a picture of your wedding ceremony? That would be so nice!


Reza

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Message from vgairola

Re: Dowry and rrustamzadeh's post...
A similar concept exists in India (read Hinduism for this purpose) concerning the personal belongings like gold (which is highly in demand in India) jewellry which is brought by the bride. This is called as 'stri-dhan' or 'wife's wealth'. The 'shastra' (ancient Hindu scriptures) as also the current Hindu Law recognizes 'stri-dhan' as the personal wealth of the wife to the exclusion of the husband. This cannot be used by the court of law to pay off the debt of the husband if the wife does not permit it.

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Message from vgairola

My MS students of world history are always enthusiastic about knowing how to write a word in another language - since I'm Indian, they want to know what something is called in Hindi or how it is written. While teaching Feudal Japan, I got in touch with a Nisei teacher at our school and had her write word like 'Japan' and copied the characters for 'samurai' and 'bushido' and the numbers up to ten. Students were very involved in attempting to write the characters and coloring it in their own combination of hues. I wasn't too lucky in ge tting characters in Chinese though.
By the way, if I remember correctly, the term 'Zen' (Buddhism) is derived from Sanskrit. The word for meditation in Sanskrit is 'dhyan', which became 'ch'an' in Chinese phonetics and then 'Zen' in Japanese!
I'm planning to watch 'Hero' starring Jet Li - as suggested in the forum - and checking for audio-visual content to be shown when I'm covering China next year

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Message from vgairola

Teaching world history involves a lot of 'jumping around' and this can be quite a task for MS istudents to keep track of, especially since our students at large are not too much Geography savy.
When do you cover Japan? Before you get into the Crusades or after you have covered China and the Mongols? Is there a specific pattern that you use to slide to a different culture so it doesn't become too drastic of a switch for the students?
I always point out the region of the world on the world map that we will be covering after I have given them a pointer as to what region we just completed.

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Message from vhui

I noticed some of the work you did with students when covering Japan and it was great. I noticed students carrying around papers with different words or their names written in Japanese.

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Message from rboller

Hey Reza,

I should have tracked this thread better - sorry.

I don't have a picture easily scannable, maybe I'll get my husband to work on it this weekend. You can all laugh at my 80s hair.

I don't mean to overstate the history of women's oppression, and I certainly heard some truth in the UCLA seminar lecture perspective that we can't possibly expect to understand the male/female dynamics of the past completely and shouldn't be too quick to impose our own interpretations.

I find myself as a political/philosophical liberal wishing that all of us could be free from expectations based on gender, ethnicity, class, education, physical appearance or any other factor you plug in to the list. Seems so unfair when any of us bump up against limits to our self expression or life choices that exist on the basis of something assumed by others.

I do feel that it is a part of the success of human beings that we specialize and generalize our expectations - so maybe some of it is inevitable.

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Message from vgairola

Has anyone noticed the articles on China (or related) in the L A Times under 'Column One'? It is perhaps reflective of the growing influence of China in world economic affairs. Even today LAT has an article about LA's Chinatown titled 'A City's Chinese Passage'.
A couple of years back I pointed out to my HS students of WHG that the economies of China and India are moving at a tremendous pace and giving a strong competition to the US. There were grunts of disapproval and outrititght disbelief.

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Message from ssaito

As a lifelong fan of the Olympics, one way I am trying to focus the teaching of China in the 7th grade curriculum is to highlight the rich history of China's Middle Kingdom. As the start of the Silk Road, many civilization saw China as the forefront of refined culture. I am sure the arts and the other extra-curricular events surrounding the Olympics should be just as interesting as the events. Much like the World Expos, the Olympic Expos offer an insight for the locals to the outside world, but at the same time, it provides a yardstick to how their "culture" measures up to the world. With pride and the nature of 'face' in Asia, China's extravagant spending for Olympic venues and infrastructures reflects their modern willingness to open to the world again. Much like admiral Zheng He's trip to the world, China now can make the same journey through the digital media. I hope they show off their rich history and new "openness" to the world. If anyone remembers the 2004 Greece Olympic Games, the opening ceremony was rich with Greek history and fusion world culture through performances. While the games in Seoul and Tokyo/Nagano/Sapporo put those countries on the mind map of the masses, the 2008 games for China has a greater potential to raise interests around the world, simply for the fact of the ease communication and the number of nations participating. I know that winning the medals gets you respect in the world, but the real question to me is "will China finally open communication and free thought with the onslaught of foreign visitors and journalists?" Will we also see CNN type of stories where we can really see news pieces on life in rural and urban China? Will China allow their people to move beyond communism, poverty, and free travel??? Then we in the Western world could truly understand China and Asia's place in the world....

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Message from richardrodriguez

Sports: Baseball, sumo and the World Cup: We tend to think of soccer primarily as a European sport and secondly as a Latin American sport—for some the opposite applies. United States is obviously last in the equation. But where does Asia fit in? A little below Africa? Somewhere in there with the countries from the middle east? If you saw any of the world cup games, namely the first round game between France and Korea, you might think to place Asia, and Korea in particular, a little higher in the world cup/sports pyramid. Despite being behind for the majority of the game, they seemed to hold their own pretty good against the SuperEuroFrance team. Eventually they tied in the 80th minute on a sloppy, disheveled France and went on to maintain that tie against a favored western European team.

I found it interesting that the Korean community here in Los Angeles showed their support by gathering by the thousands in red t-shirts at the Staples center. It’s a nice message to send to all those Western countries that tend to dismiss Asian countries in the world sports realm discounting Asia as a continent only interested in martial arts and sub par baseball. Oh, in martial arts they excel, yes. But as for “real sports” such as baseball they are C at best. Japanese baseball in fact is a nice place for “farm teams” that washed up Americans can fall back on for a paycheck when they are no longer good enough to play serious American baseball—remember Clay’s Tom Selleck slide?

And yet if you have ever watched a Japanese baseball game—male or female league—there seems to be a lot more excitement, energy, and in general a lot more going on with the fan participation than in American baseball. Maybe Asian baseball has a long way to come but it is pretty exciting to watch as is sumo wrestling and any of the various forms of martial arts. And although no Asian teams made it to the final round of the World Cup, they did pretty good overall, better than America did anyway.

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Message from vgairola

I am looking forward to the 2008 Olympic Games, also, to see what impression China will make since gaining its recogniton as a progressive, economic giant. The country has immense potential economically and has a lot to offer culturally, deeply steeped as it is in ancient traditions.
The one comment that I would like to make is that the country has a long way to go to educate the people in speaking English as it is universally used to communicate with visitors, of which there will be many during the Olympics. I found the cops in Shanghai to be very helpful in a gruffy way when I asked for directions by pointing the location on the map - they always replied in Chinese and pointed the directions and after a lot of repetitions, shaking heads and gesticulating, I always reached the locaiton I was headed for.

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Message from richardrodriguez

The NY Times website has a slideshow I recently viewed on child brides in India. Some are girls as young as 11 that are being married off to 45 year old men with first wives and kids. The girls are sold by their fathers in to marriage for meager dowries and the chance to escape their family’s poverty. The fathers are not happy and do not want to marry off their daughters so young but they feel they have no choice. One girl wanted to go to school and become a doctor when she grew up, plans which faded when she was married off to a 45 year old man who will use her to have more children. One bride now has a daughter the same age as her, 11. Although I understand the cultural practice of an older man marrying a younger woman, I find it very disheartening that the girls are being married off so young. I think we can agree beyond cultural practice that 11 and 45 is too large a gap and that the practice is simply wrong and should be reexamined.

This of course can lead into a great discussion with students on feminism, cultural norms, exploitation, and their own thoughts on marriage and career. I recently overheard three American college girls in a café in Washington discussing plans to get married. They were talking about what they wanted from a husband, career, family name, etc. By way of their conversation, I gathered that education and career seemed a way to pass the time until they found their husbands. By the way, I was not eavesdropping, they were simply that loud.

Are we really that far from arranged marriages ourselves?

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Message from vgairola

Re: "The NY Times website has a slideshow I recently viewed on child brides in India....".

Child brides in India are generally localised in the colorful state of Rajasthan, more so in the rural communities of the country.
This practice has a historical context. India through the centuries has been subjected to regular invasions for the riches it has had - in the region, the country used to be called as 'sone-ki-chidiya' or the 'golden bird'. Virtually all of the invasions (except for the Europeans in the late medieval and early modern era who came from the south) came into the sub-continent from the north-west (today's Afganistan - specifically the North West Frontier Provinces area where Osama is supposed to be hiding).
The first region the invaders from the NW entered was the state of present -day Punjab and Rajasthan. As a result, families started marrying off their daughters at an early age to safeguard them from being 'dishonored' by the invaders. In time, this became a tradition, but it started off more as a way of survival than anything else.
As more and more families become educated and modern technology broadcasts the nature of the 'modern' world, I think this practice of child marriage should start disappearing for the most part.

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